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Hypatia II

Continued from Part I

The Mean Streets of Old Alexandria: Part II
When Hypatia Was a Little Girl

AD 355.  Sometime around AD 355, one year after Augustine of Hippo was born, the well-known mathematician and astrologer, Theon of Alexandria, begat a daughter whom he named Hypatia.  She was to mature into a mathematician and astrologer in her own right, but also a Neoplatonist philosopher of no small repute, one of a small band of female philosophers that graced that period of history in Alexandria. 

At this point even the youngest of the persecuted Christians would be in her fifties.  But their children, now grown to adulthood, might still harbor fear of their pagan neighbors based on tales their parents had told.  After all, Diocletian’s persecution had come out of the blue following a period of relative toleration. 


Alexandria is one of the important seats of the Christians.  Its bishop, the Successor of St. Mark, has traditionally ranked Number Two behind the Pope of Rome.  Alexandria is in continual wrangles with Number Three, Antioch, over theological matters: Antioch emphasizes the divinity of Christ, Alexandria his humanity.  (Eventually, an ecumenical council will rule: OK, dudes, he was both.  Now shut up about it.)  Byzantium has recently been renamed Constantinople (in AD 330), and its bishop being, ipso facto, the pastor of the Augustus of the East, has become a dude to be reckoned with.  But Alexandria opposes the elevation of Constantinople to Patriarchy.  And whenever an Antiochene is appointed to the See of St. Andrew, the See of St. Mark becomes a mite peckish.  None of this bothers the See of St. Peter, out in the Wild West.  The problems there are of a more practical nature: few cities and far flung.  And there are an awful lot of barbarians piling up against the Rhine and Danube frontiers.  Something about Huns out on the steppes. 

AD 356.  The Mithrium.  Constantine may have tolerated Christianity and even accepted baptism on his deathbed, but most of his family were determined Arians.  Thus, when Constantius II becomes sole emperor, he immediately expels the orthodox bishops, including Pope Athanasius of Alexandria.  He installs an Arian named George of Cappadocia in his place.  George sets about making himself obnoxious, for which he has a wonderful talent, not only obnoxious to the orthodox and the pagans, but even to his fellow Arians.  Constantius gives George a parcel of desert on which to build a church.  While clearing the land for the foundation, he discovers the “secret room” of an old pagan temple, the Mithrium.  In the adytum they find idols and “instruments for initiation or perfection which seem ludicrous and strange to the beholders.”  The Christians form a parade and carry them though the town in daylight.  Hoo-aah.  What seems divine and mysterious in a dim-lit adytum seems plain silly in broad daylight.  A giant phallus?  Geez Louise, you can’t be serious!  Hahaha.  Perhaps the women laugh loudest.  So that’s what the boys worship?  It figures.  Incensed, a pagan mob arms themselves “with swords, stones, and whatever weapon came first to hand” and attack the Christians, killing many of them and crucifying others, and leaving many wounded in the streets.  (Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Bk. V. ch. 7)

AD 360.  The Serapeum is ransacked by Artemius, prefect of the City, on the orders of the Arian heretic George of Cappadocia.  (Socrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History, Bk III. Ch. 3).  We are told that George “brought an army into the holy city [Alexandria] and the Prefect of Egypt [Artemius] seized the most sacred shrine of the God [the Serapeum] and stripped it of its statues and offerings and of all the ornaments.”  (Julian, Letters, ‘To the Alexandrians’).  Did that include the library in the colonnade?  Perhaps.  Julian will write to Ecdicius, the new Prefect of Egypt, and ask him to confiscate George’s large private library and send it to him at Constantinople (Julian, Letters, 'To Ecdicius').  Julian knows that George has a lot of books because they had known each other earlier in life.  So George is a book-lover and, since he ordered the temple ransacked, he might very well have taken the books in the Serapeum for himself.  It is certain that the books were no longer there when Ammianus Marcellinus, later writes of its library in the perfect tense [fuerunt].  The temple “once had” many books.  The perfect tense in Latin denotes an action that is over and done with. 

Paul Orosius, writing some forty years afterwards (ca.AD 417), will say that “in some of the temples there remain up to the present time book chests, which we ourselves have seen, and that, as we are told, these were emptied by our own men in our own day when these temples were plundered.”  Perhaps he is referring to George and his looting of the Serapeum in AD 360.  Notice that he does not say the books were destroyed, only that they were grabbed by looters.  It was then not uncommon even for emperors and governors to loot older institutions in order to furnish their own endowments. 

Six months later, while on his way to Persia, Julian will write to Porphyrius that that George’s book collection was “very large and complete and contained philosophers of every school and many historians.” Julian, Letters, 'To Porphyrius').   Alas, we don’t know whether Julian ever received George’s books.  They may have reached the capital after Julian left for Antioch and were incorporated into the Imperial Library.  (For a more complete discussion of the Serapeum Library, see Bede's Library. )

AD 361.  When Hypatia is six years old, Emperor Constantius the Arian dies and his nephew Julian the Apostate takes over.  He immediately executes his uncle’s supporters, including Artemius, the military governor of Egypt who had ransacked the Serapeum.  As soon as the magistrates announce that Julian is top dog and is reinstating the Old Time Religion, the pagans, “transported by this unlooked-for joy, grinding their teeth and uttering fearful outcries,” seize George, “trample him; then drag him about spread-eagle fashion, and kill him.”  Two civic officials with him suffer the same fate.  Then the “inhuman mob loads the mutilated bodies of the slain men upon camels and carries them to the shore, where they burn the bodies on a fire and throw the ashes into the sea, fearing that relics might be collected and a church built for them.”  (Ammianus Marcellinus, Roman Antiquities, Book XXII ch. 11)

Ammianus is a pagan, but that doesn’t mean he likes proletarian mobs running around.  No one has a kind word for George.  The pagans hate him because he had profaned temples and mocked their rites; the Orthodox, because he had persecuted them and drove Athanasius into hiding with death threats.  Emperor Julian’s response to the violence was to chastise the Alexandrians for taking the law into their own hands.  Ol’ George, he deserved every torture you gave him, but it should have been done legally. 

out of the blue, after a brief period of toleration, the pagans have at the Christians again.  Julian does not order an official persecution, but he does bar Christians – Orthodox, Novatian, and Arian alike – from office, forbids them to read or teach Greek literature, purges them from the army, and even prosecutes local officials who investigate atrocities against Christians.  Some of the atrocities are, well, atrocious:

The inhabitants of Heliopolis were guilty of “an act of barbarity which could scarcely be credited, had it not been corroborated by the testimony of those who witnessed it.”  They stripped the holy virgins of their garments, and exposed them nude as a public spectacle. Then they shaved them, ripped their bellies open, and mixed pig food in their intestines.  Then they set hungry pigs upon them.  “I am convinced,” writes Sozomen, “that the citizens of Heliopolis perpetrated this barbarity on account of the prohibition of the ancient custom of yielding up virgins to any chance comer before being united in marriage. This custom was prohibited by a law enacted by Constantine after he destroyed the Heliopolitan temple of Venus and erected a church on the ruins.”  (Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Book V, ch. 10)  

AD 363.  Before setting off into Persia, Julian encloses himself within the Temple of the Moon at Carra, and afterward has the Temple doors sealed and a guard placed so no one can enter until his return. However, preferring speed to safety, he fights the ambushing Persians without pausing to put on armor and is killed in battle, thus demonstrating that he was not the reincarnation of Alexander the Great, after all.  When his successor sends men into the Temple they find a woman hanging by her hair with her liver torn out.  Julian had conducted the pagan rite of extispicy, or reading of entrails.  [Theodoret, Ecclesiastical History, Book III, ch. 21]

Julian was not the only emperor to conduct such rites, as ancient writers have attested.  The emperor Didius Julianis was another known to have done so.  Dio Cassius writes in the Epitomes LXXIII.16.5: “Julianus also killed many boys as a magic rite, believing that he could avert some future misfortunes if he learned of them beforehand.” 

Extispicy was most often done with animals, but the use of humans was not unknown.  In Homer, Agamemnon sacrificed his own daughter before setting out; and Menelaus sacrificed two Egyptian boys to secure fair winds for his return.  The uptight Christians did not approve of eviscerating women and children; still less, babies (whose remains were placed in brass jars and buried in temple.)  Sometimes pregnant women were eviscerated and extispicy performed on the fetus.  Do not confuse modern day pretend-pagans with the true quill. 

AD 365 July 21.  An earthquake, estimated to have been magnitude eight, centered near Crete, created a tsunami that swept across Alexandria.  The wave deposited ships up to  two miles inland.  Ammianus Marcellinus described how the earth shook and then the ocean receded and came back as a great wave that inundated the city with seawater, killing thousands.  I don't know if it swept through whatever remained of the library. 

ca. AD 370.  Synesius of Cyrene is born.  He will be a student of Hypatia and the primary source for our knowledge of her teachings. 

Valentinian I is Augustus of the West; his brother Valens is Augustus of the East.  After a crushing defeat by the Huns in AD 372, the Goths and the Asding Vandals petition the Empire for shelter and are settled along the Danubian frontier.  The Romans treat them so overbearingly that the Goths revolt in AD 378, defeat and kill Valens at the Battle of Adrianople.  It is the end of the legions and the beginning of a mercenary army led by Romanized Germans. 

Theodosius I (left) succeeds Valens as Augustus of the East and eventually becomes sole Augustus. 

AD 385.  Theophilus is elected Pope of Alexandria and begins agitating against the Novatians.  Hypatia is about thirty years old at the time.  In AD 39,1after more than a decade of toleration, the Emperor issues an edict against cult practices, as a result of which many urban temples are abandoned.  Theophilus says, “Kool!”   

 “Not content with razing the idols' temples to the ground, Theophilus exposed the tricks of the priests to the victims of their wiles. For they had constructed statues of bronze and wood hollow within, and fastened the backs of them to the temple walls, leaving in these walls certain invisible openings. Then coming up from their secret chambers they got inside the statues, and through them gave any order they liked; and the hearers, tricked and cheated, obeyed.  These tricks the wise Theophilus exposed to the people.”  (Theodoret, Ecclesiastical History Book V, ch. 10)

ca. AD 391.  Synesius (21) is in Alexandria studying with Hypatia (36).  He becomes lifelong friends with his fellow students, and with Herculian, Olympius, and “the deacon,” he forms a “foursome elected by fortune.”  

·         Synesius will later become a bishop

·         Olympius a wealthy landowner in Syria and pious Christian. 

·         Herculianus is friends with the military governor of Egypt. 

·         The “deacon” is supposed by some to be Isidore of Pelusium, the future Church Father and spiritual mentor to Theophilus’ nephew, Cyril.  (Isidore was in studies in Alexandria at this time, and pretty much anyone who was anyone at least audited Hypatia’s public seminars.)  Isidore addressed some letters to a certain Synesiōi, so it is likely that they knew each other; but there is no direct evidence that Isidore was “the deacon.” 

Other students include:

·         Euoptius, Synesius’ kid brother, also a future bishop;

·         Ammonius, who will be on the Alexandrian town council;

·         Heysichius, who will become duke of Libya and also a future bishop

·         Cyrus (Fl. Taurus Seleucus Cyrus of Panopolis) probably Herculianus’ older brother and future high official at the imperial court;

·         Theotecnus, the “worthy and holy father”

·         Athanasius, the sophist

·         Theodosius,the grammarian

·         Gaius, Simplicius, Ision, and others known to us only by name. 

Like Hypatia, the students are all high-class.  They are “connected.”  The mysteries of Plotinus are not for the vulgar.  Also, most of Hypatia’s students are Christians (including three future bishops!)  This may sound odd to those who believe more modern myths, but the Schools of Old Alexandria were not segregated by “tribe.”  Despite the occasional riots by the lower classes, the pagans of the Upper City could and did attend the lectures of Christian philosophers, and vice versa.  Pagans may even have attended the famed Catechetical School.  They might not believe in the crucified god, but they knew scholarship – in texts, grammar, and rhetoric – when they heard it.  The great sermonizers of Alexandria were heirs to the long tradition of Greek rhetoric.  The emperor Julian would hardly have found it necessary to forbid Christians from teaching and interpreting Greek literature if they were not in fact doing so. 

This group of initiates became an intensely loyal family around Hypatia; they called each other "brother," maintained their contacts over a lifetime, and would only hint to the outside world at what secrets they had heard in Hypatia's house.  But this was not a crypto-pagan cult, not simply another band of disinherited priests reminiscing over the old days like the embittered Palladas.  Nor were they the augurs and fortune-tellers that Theon counted among his friends.  They instead represented both the old and the new in the empire and the city - and as such represented perhaps a chance for Alexandria to reinvent itself, and so save itself, one last time.  (Justin Pollard and Howard Reid, The Rise and Fall of Alexandria: Birthplace of the Modern World)

Synesius wrote many letters, some of which survive and give us a sketch of life among the upper classes at the end of an age.  (They are numbered by their order in the surviving manuscript, but scholars have reconstructed a chronological sequence from internal references.)  When Herculian and Synesius parted company, probably in AD 395, Synesius wrote a farewell letter to him in which he said:

If Homer had told us that it was an advantage to Odysseus in his wanderings that he saw the towns and became acquainted with the mind of many nations, and although the people whom he visited were not cultured, but merely Laestrygonians and Cyclopses, how wondrously then would poetry have sung of our voyage, a voyage in which it was granted to you and me to experience marvelous things, the bare recital of which had seem to us incredible!  We have seen with our eye, we have heard with our ears the lady who legitimately presides over the mysteries of philosophy.  (Synesius, Letter 137)

“The lady” of course was Hypatia. 

Hypatia seems to have gotten along with Theophilus.  Synesius, in his letters, appeals to both to help out some friends of his in a legal problem.  Nor is there any surviving record of a conflict.  Theophilus remains on good terms with Synesius while the latter is a student of Hypatia.  He later presides at Synesius’ wedding, anoints Synesius bishop, and so forth.  He would hardly have done so if he was hostile to Hypatia’s teachings. 

Continued in Part III: The Deconstruction of the Serapeum


( 23 comments — Leave a comment )
Jul. 11th, 2010 05:20 am (UTC)
thus demonstrating that he was not the reincarnation of Alexander the Great, after all.

Er -- how? Alexander the Great ended up dead, too.

Jul. 11th, 2010 06:37 pm (UTC)
Alex died of illness, not in battle.
Jul. 12th, 2010 01:09 am (UTC)
And certainly not because he neglected to dress properly.
Jul. 11th, 2010 05:15 pm (UTC)
"Theophilus says, “Kool!”
Not if he was up on his kids lingo. Then he would have said,"kewl"

To lazy to log in: Martin T.
Jul. 11th, 2010 10:38 pm (UTC)
I think the matter is a lot simpler. There is no evidence whatever that Hypatia was not Christian; the only one who says so is John of Nikiu, a late and unreliable witness distorted by hatred and prejudice. I would say that a teacher whose best known students all turn out to be Christians has a good chance of being one herself. So she taught philosophy and astronomy; so did plenty of Christians - think of Boethius, a.k.a. St.Severinus. Ammonius was a Christian who taught philosophy in Alexandria before Plotinus, let alone Theon and Hypatia. Indeed, the subjects of Theon and Hypatia were among those that ended up in the medieval quadrivium - philosophy under the guise of logic - and became the foundation of mediaeval culture. If there is any evidence that Hypatia was not a Christian, other than John of Nikiu, I want to see it.
Jul. 12th, 2010 12:56 am (UTC)
Damascius' account of Hypatia makes it quite clear that she was a pagan.
Jul. 12th, 2010 01:51 am (UTC)
Damascius' entire account:

Hypatia was born, reared, and educated in Alexandria. Since she had greater genius than her father, she was not satisfied with his instruction in mathematical subjects; she also devoted herself diligently to all of philosophy.

The woman used to put on her philosopher's cloak and walk through the middle of town and publicly interpret Plato, Aristotle, or the works of any other philosopher to those who wished to hear her. In addition to her expertise in teaching she rose to the pinnacle of civic virtue. She was both just and chaste and remained always a virgin. She was so beautiful and shapely that one of her students fell in love with her and was unable to control himself and openly showed her a sign of his infatuation. Uninformed reports had Hypatia curing him of his affliction with the help of music. The truth is that the story about music is corrupt. Actually, she gathered rags that had been stained during her period and showed them to him as a sign of her unclean descent and said, "This is what you love, young man, and it isn't beautiful!" He was so affected by shame and amazement at the ugly sight that he experienced a change of heart and went away a better man.

Such was Hypatia, as articulate and eloquent in speaking as she was prudent and civil in her deeds. The whole city rightly loved her and worshipped her in a remarkable way, but the rulers of the city from the first envied her, [sic] something that often happened at Athens too. For even if philosophy itself had perished, nevertheless, its name still seems magnificent and venerable to the men who exercise leadership in the state. Thus it happened one day that Cyril, bishop of the opposition party was passing by Hypatia's house, and he saw a great crowd of people and horses in front of her door. Some were arriving, some departing, and others standing around. When he asked why there was a crowd there and what all the fuss was about, he was told by her followers that it was the house of Hypatia the philosopher and she was about to greet them. When Cyril learned this he was so struck with envy that he immediately began plotting her murder and the most heinous form of murder at that. For when Hypatia emerged from her house, in her accustomed manner, a throng of merciless and ferocious men who feared neither divine punishment nor human revenge attacked and cut her down, thus committing an outrageous and disgraceful deed against their fatherland. The Emperor was angry, and he would have avenged her had not Aedesius been bribed. Thus the Emperor remitted the punishment onto his own head and family for his descendant paid the price. The memory of these events is still vivid among the Alexandrians.
Jul. 12th, 2010 05:05 pm (UTC)
Damascius was a staunch pagan. He viewed conversion to Christianity as an act of desertion(Polymnia Athanassiadi (1993). Persecution and Response in Late Paganism. p.6). The converts were traitors in his eyes.

Damascius' account comes from his "Life of Isidore". This work is filled with biographies--all of which are modelled on the Neoplatonic scale of virtues. Damascius uses his biographical sketches to showcase "patterns of philosophical perfection". (Dominic J. O'Meara (2006). Patterns of Perfection in Damascius' Life of Isidore.)

His "Life of Isidore" was never intended for wide distribution. It was essential a manual for students of the Platonic school. To have placed the biography of a Christian convert among lives worthy of emulation in a text distributed among students of Neoplatonism just doesn't make any sense.
Jul. 12th, 2010 07:27 pm (UTC)
That's a distinct possibility.

Another is that two generations after the fact, her allegiances were little known and the Egyptian habit of calling everyone a pagan who disagreed with them had already taken hold. Recall that Socrates S says the Nitrian monks had called Orestes a "pagan" even though he had been baptized by the Patriarch of Constantinople himself.
Jul. 13th, 2010 03:48 am (UTC)
The problem is that Orestes is showing respect to Hypatia that Cyril thought should have been going to him. Is he had been a Christian, she would surely have had to go to Cyril's salutatio each morning. In case anyone is wondering ff this text does indeed show conclusively that she was not Christian, even besides the fact, pointed out below, that Damascius would hardly have spoken of her in this way if she had been of 'the opposing sect.'

Incidentally, I know this is Athanassiadi's translation, but I wonder where you got the text? Did you copy it yourself from the book, or did you find it somewhere on the internet.
Jul. 13th, 2010 09:15 pm (UTC)
I don't know if the salutatio was still being done in the 5th century. I didn't run across any mention of anyone holding salutationis. If so, only clientales were obliged to attend. Simply being a Christian would not make one a client of Cyril.

There is no evidence that Cyril thought Orestes respect should have been going to him rather than to Hypatia. The evidence points to a fear that, given the power base Hypatia represented among the upper class, her influence could tip the balance of power in Orestes favor. Given the choice between being well-liked and being powerful, none of the players of that age would have chosen the I-wish-other-people-liked-me-more route. That's a distinctly postmodern syndrome.
Jul. 13th, 2010 10:09 pm (UTC)
I guess then you must not have read this passage of Damascius which makes it clear that the reason Cyril wanted her dead because he was jealous that Orestes (the powers that be) went to her salutatio each morning? I suppose you're right that Orestes wasn't obliged to pay his respects to Cyril in the formal sense, but that doesn't mean Cyril didn't want him to, and not because he was a bishop and Orestes a Christian (they weren't the same sort of Christian) but because Cyril wanted to be running Alexandria, as he shortly wound up doing.

"Hypatia being of such a nature--skilled and dialectical in speech, wise and politic in behavior--the entire city naturally loved her and held her in exceptional esteem, while the powers-that-be paid their respects first to her, as indeed was the custom in Athens. Even if philosophy itself was dead, its name at least still seemed most honourable and worthy of admiration to those who ran the affairs of the city.

It happened one day that Cyril, the man in charge of the opposing sect, was passing Hypatia’s house and seeing a great crowd at the door ‘a mix of men and horses’ [Homer, Iliad, 21.16], some going, some coming and standing around, he asked what the crowd was and why there was this commotion in front of the house. His attendants told him that honours were being paid to the philosopher Hypatia and that this was her house. When he heard this, envy so gnawed at his soul that he soon began to plot her murder--the most ungodly murder of all."

And, by the way, the practice of the saulatio never ceased; it continued in the formerly Roman world throughout the middle ages and early modern periods, and in some circles no doubt still persists. There's one in the Godfather even. But it isn't the kind of thing sources explain in great detail because its such an obvious part of life, except when, as here, it plays some significant role in events. For instance, I don't think the word salutatio ever occurs in Cicero It doesn't even occur in Martial, although he is perhaps the best sources of descriptions of the institution), but it occurs in writers like Appian who have to explain Roman realia to a Greek audience. By this time, the East was throughly Romanized in tis respect, although its been a long time since any legitimate historian has argued that Greek society didn't depend just as much on patron-client relations as the Roman, even though the out forms might have differed from place to place. Interesting that here Damascius associates the most obviously Roman social form with Athens.

The Arabs took the salutatio over too. I couldn't find it just now, but about a year ago I saw an interesting video of Alwaleed bin Talal al-Saud hosting his salutatio. He stood outside his house at some estate on the edge of the desert with about a dozen body guards while a line of at least a hundred men came and paid their respect to him. Each one gave him a little present (one of them I remember was an author who presented him with a copy of his book)while several asked about the things they needed, a govt. contract, a loan, etc.
Jul. 13th, 2010 10:20 pm (UTC)
Looking back over your earlier post, I see the translation of Damascius wasn't Athanassiadi's after all.

"the entire city naturally loved her and held her in exceptional esteem, while the powers-that-be paid their respects first to her, as indeed was the custom in Athens."--Athan.

"he whole city rightly loved her and worshipped her in a remarkable way, but the rulers of the city from the first envied her, [sic] something that often happened at Athens too."--X

I can see why you didn't recognize it as referring to a salutatio relying on that corrupt translation (and there is no question but that A. has it right, at the time it was published I made sure to read the original of that passage myself precisely because it is a rare glimpse into how Greek handled the technicalities of clientage).
Jul. 14th, 2010 12:58 am (UTC)
"the rulers of the city from the first envied her, [sic] something that often happened at Athens too."

I had always taken that to be a bitter reference to the closing of Damascius' school in Athens by the Emperor Justinian. It had a fair claim to being the lineal descendant of Plato's original Academy. Hence the reference to the "rulers" being envious of the philosophers.

Damascius was writing two generations after the fact and regarding Hypatia only tangentially.

The usual interpretation is that the crowd outside was waiting for one of her public seminars. But really the texts say nothing that specific and it is likely that Damascius simply did not know. The whole scene is unlikely, given that Hypatia had been prominent enough to draw important students from great distances even before Cyril had become patriarch. So, he would not likely be ignorant of whose house it was or to have conceived a "jealousy" on the basis of the crowd outside. Damascius does not even get the events of the murder right.

I didn't know that "powers-that-be" was a term in use back then. Kool.
Jul. 14th, 2010 01:18 am (UTC)
Damascius had the story from Isidore was in the city at the time of her murder, so his versions to preferred to the others. In fact things got so hot for Greeks in Alexandria after that, Isidore had to flee.

The Greek is archontes--I don't like powers that be either, but A's not a native English speaker.
Jul. 14th, 2010 02:01 am (UTC)
Isidore "flourished" as they say ca. 500. This is far too late for him to have been a witness to Hypatia's murder. Damascius was born in AD 460, which was itself more than forty years afterward. He and Isidore went to Athens in AD 489, where Isidore became head of the Academy. If Isidore had been as old as 16 at the time Hypatia was murdered, he would have been 89 when he left for Athens, became head Plutarch's old academy, gotten in a snit with the other scholars, and left town. While it is not absolutely impossible for a man in his 90s, it is at least profoundly unlikely.

I don't know of anyone who regards Damascius as more reliable than Socrates Scholasticus.

(That is why the fragment in the Suda claiming that Hypatia was married to Isidore is regarded as spurious. Everyone else says she was a lifelong virgin.)
Jul. 14th, 2010 04:36 am (UTC)
My memory is otherwise, but you may have a point. I don't have Athanassiadi here or any other means of checking, so it would be silly for me to argue the point for the present.
Jul. 16th, 2010 06:20 am (UTC)
"At this point even the youngest of the persecuted Christians would be in her fifties."

That's where I stop reading, no matter how good the text -- it's the principle of the thing.
Jul. 16th, 2010 04:36 pm (UTC)
Re: The Church is "she"
1. The church is properly "she" as she is the bride of Christ. Therefore, it is properly represented figuratively by a female survivor. It's a theological thing.

2. If you figure most of those executed would have been bishops, priests, and other high figures in the church, the survivors would have been disproportionately female. It's a probability thing.

3. Regardless, women tend to live longer than men because the latter are demographically disposable; therefore the last survivors would more likely have been women. It's an actuarial thing.

3. Also a reminder that the new faith was especially attractive to women, who then led their menfolk into it. In how many of the tales of the age do we find that the wife or mother converted the son or husband? And the Church was the first to lift women to high honors, starting with the good ol' BVM, and going on to "Felicity, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia," and all the rest. Paganism by contrast was especially male. (Do we imagine women worshiping giant penises?) During the Victorian age of Patriarchy, the Church was ever accused of being too feminine. In the age of feminism, she was accused of being too masculine. It's a nose-thumbing-at-paganism thing.
Aug. 5th, 2010 04:29 pm (UTC)
Re: The Church is "she"
1) You weren't talking about the church, you were talking about non-specified persons.

It's an honesty thing.

2) Utterly irrelevant.

It's an honesty, and grammar, thing.

3) Again, utterly irrelevant.

It's a logic and honesty, and grammar, thing.
Aug. 5th, 2010 09:55 pm (UTC)
Re: The Church is "she"
I am a little curious as to why you would refuse to read a posting on one of the best known women of antiquity simply because the last survivors of the generation persecuted by Diocletian were most likely themselves women. Is it an anti-woman thing?
Sep. 27th, 2010 05:05 pm (UTC)
"I am a little curious as to why you would refuse to read a posting on one of the best known women of antiquity simply because the last survivors of the generation persecuted by Diocletian were most likely themselves women. Is it an anti-woman thing?"

I've already explained this to you -- it is my (general) policy to *stop* reading a piece (or, if it's radio, switching to a different program) when the author uses "gender-inclusive" language.

If I had an anti-woman thing, would I have even *started* reading the series?

And, if you were paying attention to the language I'd used, you'd understand that I was enjoying the series ... until you chose to violate the English language by letting some sick, group-identity politics (with which you don't even agree!) dictate your wording.
Sep. 27th, 2010 10:31 pm (UTC)
Re: Please!
until you chose to violate the English language by letting some sick, group-identity politics (with which you don't even agree!) dictate your wording.

Hmm. It doesn't even occur to you that nothing "dictated" to me, but that I made a conscious decision based on statistical likelihood.

Also, the leftishly correct aren't the only ones with chains to yank. In a work in progress, one woman refers to another as her "brother."

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